Tournament Federation CF (Brook version 1.0)

This forum is created for the discussion of a tournament version of the Federation CF created ny Brook Villa.

First playtest!

Fed TCF playtest report: UpAllKnight (Fed) v Akira (ISC)

Turn 1: Fed plots 16/1, 26/13. ISC plots 24/1, 17/13. Fed completes overloads of photons and ISC envelopes both G-torps. The ships close head on, and at R15 the ISC launches an EPT-G from the C launcher and fires the PPD. Fed turns C, ISC turns B. Both ships sideslip to maintain range at 10 or so with the ISC launching a Pl-F from the D launcher after a few impulses. Eventually the enveloper hits for 30, revealing 5 reinforcement on the Fed's #1. Toward the end of the turn ISC turns C, the Fed fires a few P-3 into the F-torp, and the ISC launches a second EPT-G (on impulse 32). Ships are about 12 hexes apart both facing C.

Turn 2: ISC plots 24/1, 23/4, 16/21. Fed plots 16/1, 30/9. Fed turns D to pursue ISC, eating the EPT-G at full strength on impulse 9. Fed's speed change kicks in and he begins closing on the ISC. ISC launches second PL-F from E launcher on impulse 17. ISC is heading E into the SW corner, Fed is 8 or so hexes behind and turns E to pursue, eating the F-torp for 10 after P3 fire. Seeing a R0 overrun in the near future, ISC HETs to B. The ships get to R3, Fed #6 to ISC #5. ISC does 8 with 1 P1 & 2 P3s. Fed unloads 3 16-pt photons and 5 of 7 bearing P1s scoring 33 internals- only one phaser but both rear Fs. Impulse 31 Fed fires remaining 2 P1s hitting the PPD, power, and all but 1 shuttle. ISC fire 2 more P1s scoring 1 internal (hull). Fed launches a drone, and the ships end the turn 5 hexes apart, ISC facing B off the Fed's #5, Fed facing D off the ISC's #4. ISC shields are 30/30/24/24/0/30 and has 28 power, 2 G-torps, and all but one P-3. Fed shields are 16/13/11/12/3/0 and has taken one internal.

Turn 3: ISC plots 24/1, 17/17. Fed plots 16 all turn. ISC runs, firing 2 P3s under PFC at the Fed drone but managing not to kill it, and eats 12 on its #4. Fed HETs B to pursue the ISC. Ships end the turn at R8, Fed facing B off the ISC #2, ISC facing C off the Fed #1. ISC repairs an APR.

Turn 4: ISC plots 0/1, -4/8, 0/16, 1/28. Fed plots 28/1, 14/8, 12/16, 8/26. Impulse 1 ISC launches a standard G torp. Fed launches a drone, fires 2 P3 at the torp and takes it on the #6, gambling it is a fake. It isn't and the 16 internals hit the G-rack, 2xP3, some power and fluff. ISC tacs to D and fires 4xP1 at R4, dropping Fed's #1 to 1 box after 1 pt reinforcement. Impulse 7 Fed launches a shuttle. Impulse 8 ISC changes to speed -4 and fires 2xP1 scoring 2 internals after reinforcement (P3, P1). Fed turns A to prevent further mizia damage and launches a second shuttle. Fed slips right to R2 with ISC on the perfect oblique from the Fed's #2. ISC launches a wild weasel, which the fed drone kills. Fed does not fire and circles the ISC attempting to get it into FA arc. Fed fires 4xP1 at ISC's weak #4 doing 8 in (P3, power, fluff). ISC changes to speed 0 and changes facing to C to bring second Pl-G into arc. ISC launches Pl-G, tractors one Fed shuttle, and kills a second with 2xP3. Fed launches a third shuttle which the ISC IDs as a suicide. Pl-G hits Fed's 8-point #3 for 12 internals (Photon, 2xP1, pwr, fluff). ISC tractors suicide shuttle. Turn ends with the ships 4 hexes apart: ISC facing B off the Fed #4, Fed facing B off the ISC #1.

ISC shields are 30/30/20/0/0/30 and has 27 pwr, with 6xP1 and 2x P3 available next turn. Fed shields are 0/13/0/12/3/0 and has 34 power with 2xPhot and 5xP1 available next turn. We stopped at that point as it was late with no clear winner. The ISC had better position but less firepower and had suffered more damage. All in all it was a pretty close game.

ISC player notes: Use of the double-envelope strategy was influenced by the reduced crunch power of this Fed and its superior ability to close quickly. While fairly effective, the loss of the PPD made it a less fruitful tactic than would otherwise have been the case. In addition, the CF can still deliver a heavy punch at close range- it has the speed to get closer than the TCC, and the extra P1 and P3 available off centerline mitigate the loss of the fourth photon.

Park on T2

When using a double EPT where the opponent eats the first EPT, you park. You can do a 17-8-4-0 plot with a planned ED if you want to try and bluff the opponent, but either way you should be parking. You were in a great position. If you had started firing an OL-PPD as soon as he hit R8, you would have been in a dominant position.

Second Playtest with TCF

Last night Brook and I played a test game, his TCF versus my Black Shark

Turn 1: We both close with a moderation - fast speed. I have two overload and two standards, and Brook tops off his torps. We reach range 5, I launch 4 drones, and we exchange fire #2 to #2. My first disrupter salvo almost completely misses, but for the sake of the playtest Brook lets me re-roll. I lower his #2. His fire is pretty much spot on, hitting with 3 full overloads and doing pretty well enough with phasers. I figured I would lose some batts with 40 internals coming to me, so I burn some. However this turns out to be a big mistake because I didn't lose any batts. Brook turns off, and I am faced with turning in to try and even the score during his photless turn but in so doing giving him my down shield which his p1s would rip to shreads next turn. If I had kept the bat power I could have hetted in. So instead I float out of effective range before turning in. This gives him plenty of time to run away.

Turn 2: I finish turing in, and start chasing, but the internals blew off almost half of my warp, so I'm not moving all that fast, even without disrupters. He cleans up my turn 1 drones with add shots and phasers (although he isn't all that lucky with the add). I more or less get back to range with him coming close to the wall by the end of the turn. I also build up to a 6 drone wave

Turn 3: I finish off my drone wave, and keep one hex away from him doing a simple turn in to get me into his FA. My power shortages limit my options by alot, but I get to range 8 and have a choice, either try to get closer or fire and turn off. I figure that if I don't hit a phot I will be in trouble, so I keep coming in. My slow speed only alows me to get to range 5, but my disrupters miss pretty badly, so I get some internals, but nothing importaint. I do get his two side front shields to almost nothing, but don't have enough left to take advantage of it. He is able to deal with my drone wave with a combo of his last drone, tractors, and some phasers. He turns around and I believe fires at range 4, but misses with 2 of the phots, and so doesn't finish me off. We end at range 4.

Turn 4: We both park, I fire some phasers down his lowered shield, but don't hit a phot or much of note. He ww the drones coming at him, and then speeds up to 4 to get closer to me. We send out the shuttle fleets, and after the smoke clears from the ships there is only 1 shuttle left which is his. He closes and I fire my disrupters into his #1, but with only 2 left it doesn't do all that much. He tractors me at range 1 towards the end of the turn, and I don't any power to fight it.

Turn 5: It is clear I am finished, but just for kicks we exchange fire. I mangle him a bit (mostly from his feedback) but he blows me to kingdom come.

All in all the TCF is looking pretty good. It is certainly more dynamic then the basic Fed. The G rack helped a bit, he was able to use his two drones to cancel two of mine, and the add took out 2 more saving power that would have normally slowed down the Fed even more. The extra power means that the ship isn't nearly as power starved on turns that it is loading. He was able to do a decent speed plot even with fully loading his three torpedos on turn 1. Hitting with all the torpedos on turn 1 certainly helps any Fed, but I guess that needs to be taken with a grain of salt just because if he had only hit with 1 or none it would have been a much different game.

The only things that I am a bit conserned about (although more playtesting and wiser opponents then me will have a better opinion then I) is that the ship has 8 p1s, which is alot for any tourny ship, 7 of which can track the entire FH, and plenty of power to use them, while loading torps, without causing it to breath too heavy. All those phasers may very well be needed, because a G rack hardly consitutes good seeker defence, but this ship has quite a lot of power, which also help with seeker defence. Also if you lower the available offense too much, then many ships will just run it over, taking it's fire an then blowing it up.

Still the ship is looking pretty good, and if it does need to be tweeked I don't think it is by much. It has the look of a fun ship to play, and much less predictable to play against, so I say keep the playtests coming in!

What phaser arcs did you

What phaser arcs did you choose for it?

RE: What phaser arcs?

Carl, the phaser arrangement is this:

3 x FH p1s
3 x 360 p1s
1 x LS p1
1 x RS p1
3 x 360 p3s

If the ship proves to be a tad bit too strong, hacking off 1 of the p3s can be an easy fix. Futzing with the turn 1 free Overload energy would be another thing. IIRC, the current ship has 4 points of free OL energy at the start as opposed to 8 points for the old Fed. With the photons, it's best to work with increments/decrements of 4 since any other number would result in having to use fractional accounting for photons on turn 1 which is silly.

I have compared your SSD with

I have compared your SSD with the SSD for the CF.

Shields: +
Torps: +
Phaser suite: +
Hull: + and -

Plus: I recall you wanted more Aft Hull to protect the shuttles. However this also protect help protect the AWR, which also help protect the shuttles.
Since the ship have four AWR, rather than the standard two, you have what amounts to 8 Aft Hull boxes. Standard is four.
I used the client to roll internals a couple of times. I choosed to roll for 30 ints, and the tendency was this either failed to kill all the aft hull, or just started nibbling on the AWR. You still had a shuttlebay after 40 ints.
Considering that for 30 ints vs a normal Fed TCC hull layout the shuttlebay is still in good shape i think this change was not really neccessary.

Minus: Interestingly it usually also lost a battery hit or two in my test. I recall you removed two FA Hull, or rather moved them FA. Maybe that move should be undone. Given it has more power (= faster) than the TCC I think the ability to preserve batteries for HETs is more important than keeping the shuttles alive.

(I noticed something interesting when testing 50 ints. You lost shuttles also on #7 roll on the DAC! IOW at really high numbers the FAhull "leaked" and shuttle was hit)

Compared to the TCC.

Torps: -
Phasers: +
Power: +
Hull: + and - (as above)
G-rack: +

The phaser suite has better arcs and durability. The ship is faster while loading and can actually pretend it is an Orion and put up a decent brick when holding torps. Hk 4, Trps 6, Move 20 and perhaps 10 on a flank shield.

Ah, yes; only one AUX??? Weird:P

Well, just a couple of things.

Well, your saying the the ship needs the batteries more than the shuttles. I will have to respectfully say that is not necessarily true. I think shuttles in the end game are sometimes more important than keeping your batts. Especially once you have been taking some considerable internals. Also, I play the fed a lot and, in my experience, the het is usually used before you start taking enough internals to start loosing batteries and shuttles. Now, granted, the phaser suite is optimized as far as the arcs, but to say that 8 phaser ones and 3 phaser 3's is better than 10 phaser ones and 2 phaser threes is pushing it(I am referring to your comparison to the fast cruiser.) I know that only one auxcon is wierd. When I originally made the ship on graph paper, there wasn't enough room for the 2nd box. It could actually fit now. Maybe I'll have Barry add it. Or maybe not. I think it's kinda cool. I also want to say that I never intended to replace the playtest fast cruiser with my ship. I just used the regular fed and the fast fed and made a hybrid fed. I basically wanted to make a fed ship that could compete in the tournament, be unpredictable, and most of all fun. Also, the improvements in the ship allow for it to rely much less on luck than the normal tourney cruiser. I know more playtesting is needed, but only time will tell. The two games I have played so far have been extremely fun. Can't tell you how much of a gas it is to launch drones as a Fed. :) ....and no, I didn't win both of them.

Let's give the signature ship in this game a freakin' chance.......That is my ultimate goal.

Good to hear you have fun,

Good to hear you have fun, Brook. Sort of sound like my enthusiasm for the Photon Orion.

1. I am not sure this ship would be a ship you park. To me it look more like a CWL:P So, myself I would tweak it to be better at speedy things than parky things is.

2. Remember phaser-1s 9 and 10 are RH on the CF.
It can therefore only fire 6 phaser-1s of the centerline, unlike your ship that can fire 7.
BTW, I think the CF phaser suite is cool and interesting because it is not perfect.
Your design OTOH is more becoming the Fed captains dream:), which I don't think is very good actually. I have had more fun with the silly arcs of the TKR than the TFH if you see what I mean.

Keep posting playtest!

Hmmm.

I'm confused. I thought you were thinking of the fast cruiser with 4FH phaser ones. What is this ship you are talking about? 4 RH phaser ones? Wierd. Also, do you play the Fed in tournaments often? Or are you strictly an Orion guy? In the past I have seen you play the Orion and the TKR. Not sure what else I can do with the phaser layout. It really has to be optimized. People look at the Fed and say, wow, it has 8 phaser ones, but rarely does it get to use all those phaser ones offensively. Given the fickle nature of photons, this makes for a not so great alpha unless the photons hit very well. The ability of this ship to generate some damage with phasers offsets this. Also, another reason why I made the phaser suite arcs better is because of the Feds poor turn mode. The ability of other ships(i.e. Orion, Klingon, TKR) to get weapons in arc is much better than the Fed. One of the Orions best tactics is to fire and alpha, then next impulse wait for the opponent to move, then Het and get all those phaser 3's down the same shield. The Klingon, can just turn off and sink phaser twos or wait to line up the phaser hose. Not to mention the fact that it's heavy weapons pretty much are going to hit, and are going to do internals, with the ability to do it all again the following turn. Having good arcs makes it easier to actually USE the phasers when you need them. The Fed shouldn't have to pray for above average dice to win. I know that when I play against the Fed, I'm like, "you better hit me good here, because if you don't I'm gonna chase you down and mug you." Like you said, more playtesting has to be done. I would like some people to actually fly the ship, as opposed to flying against it. Especially people that have suffered with the Fed over the years. Then they would get the feeling that I have, that it's not too powerful but makes for more interesting games and might, just might put the Fed back on the map....literally and figuratively.

I have toyed with the idea of

I have toyed with the idea of give the ship a try, perhaps vs Droid, but I am in a period with no SFBOL play now. This because of my studies mostly.

Yes, the CF has 4 FH phasers-1s, 2 RF/R, 2 LF/L and 2 RH (#9 and #10). This gives it 6 phasers OFF centerline, or the same as the TCC. Conversely it has 6 phaser-1s to fire directly to the rear.
A possible scenario for a ship like this could be to try for an oblique range 4 shot on the opponents #1. 6 phasers and 2 photons would result in 55 damage. Then Het away and threaten to fire the off side phasers (now in arc) and the RH phasers at the downed shield.
(If you like you could play a Orion game and have a brick on rear shields:))

I understand what you say about the need for phasers but don't agree.
The Feds phaser suite is all ready very strong. Give it to a klink and see what happens (or an Orion:)) The problems is not the phasers IMO.

Some things I do like.

Well, 46 power is nice. But, I just can't get over just two photons. Chances are one of them is going to miss. What the hell are two photons and 6 phaser ones gonna do to a bricked Orion? Also, it's not like the speed of this Fed is gonna allow it to run away from the Orion for long. It will get caught. I could be wrong, maybe the fast cruiser is a real winner. Who knows? I just think that taking away two photons is two much. Heh, I thought the two phaser ones on the main body of the ship were 360's. I just noticed that they were FH.

Yeah, the third photon you

Yeah, the third photon you added is neccessary (the CF was hardly built for a fixed map!). However it does change they way your ship fly, I think (compared to the TCC). Firing at range 8 and hope for better than average is not viable. This means one need to get closer, just like a photon Orion.
This is not so good except that the speed, 28, give you move precedence.

The Orion usually have a Gat and fusions for a second strike but your Fed need to run away while rearming.

All this is in theory of course:)

Just a few things

The other night I played a game in which I was a gorn and Tugger flew the new Fed. I didn't plan on playing long so basically what I did was launch a torp and follow it in giving him range 4 or closer. I just wanted to see what the ship could accomplish against big plasma. I also wanted to give somebody else a chance to fly the new ship and get a feel for what it can do. We'll I'm not sure we learned that much but I'm getting the feeling that the ship does NOT need any free OL energy for the photons. So from this point forward, anybody that wants to try it out, consider the ship holding 3 standard torps from the beginning. Tugger did say that flying the ship was very fun and that he would do it again. I would hope that anybody that flies the ship posts their comments here so that we have a record. One thing that happened during the game that was quite annoying was that we noticed that there were no point of turn, point of slip, drone, or shuttle counters that we could bring up. They have to be added. The new ship counter is really cool looking tho. It has a main section just like a regular Fed but the saucer section is a little more elongated on the top and hard edged on the bottom. Hey Droid, have you played any games in it yet? I really want to see what you have to say about how it can fare against a hydran and a lyran. I think against both of those ships it will do just fine. However to be sure, we need more playtesing. Get to it. I've played 3 games already. More to come.

Council may accept.

Well, I just got the e-mail from council. They are considering using my 3 photon Fed. David Cheng is asking people to vote. Well, people, send in your votes. Remember, I'm not sure that just adding a drone rack to the Fed is enough to get rid of the "luck factor". That's why I made changes in other areas as well. Go with the 3 photon fastie and have some fun. Peace. See you all in a week. :)

SSD?

Is there an SSD for this online anywhere? Other than SFBOL, that is.

No SSD

SFBOL is the only place you can see the SSD so far.

Why not just use the CF?

Brook, why didn't you just try using the Fast Cruiser? I think that if you gave it a 5th battery it's ready to go. If it's too weak like that, maybe give it a scatterpack to help it influence maneuver on the first strike. It would definitely be a totally different animal from the current TCC.

I don't like the regular fast cruiser.

When I made my ship I wasn't thinking of revamping the fast cruiser. My goal was to make a Federation ship that is competitive and that doesn't rely on luck as much as the regular fed but keeps the Fed flavor. If people like the regular fast fed, then go ahead, by all means play it. I personally don't like the ship that much. Two photons is a joke imho. An Orion will eat that thing for breakfast. Brian, why don't you try my Fed and see how you like it. It is on SFBOL, with the new counters. I've played it a few times against good opponents. The games were fun and the ship had options and was unpredictable without being overpowering. THAT'S what I am going for.

Bravo!

Challenge the status quo!
;-)

Playtest report - version 1.1

I played the revised version of the TCF last night against KzinDog's Kzinti. The new version has a slightly less powerful phaser array.

Turn 1: I plot 17/24, fully overload photons, and hold two WW. Kzindog plots 10/20. My plan is to zip in, take a range 8 shot on the oblique, and zip out with drones in pursuit. Kzindog's gets his SP out early. We close. Around mid-turn the SP drones (all spd 20) are plodding toward me. At R15 or so Kzindog launches 4 fast drones and turns F. He fires 4 std Disr at R12 doing 9 to my #1.
Here's where I make a maneuvering error. I turn E but for some reason do not fire at R8. Imp 32 he turns back A, forcing me to slip to R1 on his fast drones to keep him in my FA. I decide to move straight and look for an overrun opportunity. I kill one heavy drone but fail to kill either of the two type-Is with single P3 shots. We end the turn at R7, me facing E and him facing A. He is one hex outside my FA. I have three fast type-1s 2 hexes off my #5 and 5 SP drones about 4 hexes away (I killed one with a drone launch of my own).

Turn 2: I decide to go for the close-range shot, but need a plan to handle the drones. I plot 25/12/6/3 to get close quickly and then decel to weasel the drones. Kzindog goes 20. Impulse 1 I tractor 2 of the fast drones (now at R1). Impulse 2 I HET D, eating a type-1 on my #5, and Kzindog launches 4 more fast drones. I declare emer decel. Impulse 4 I stop at R3 of Kzindog and weasel the drones. He moves in, launching a couple shuttles. At R1 we exchange fire, my #1 to his #2. I take 22 in, he takes 44. He moves away, circling to the left. I forget about his shuttles and they do 5 internals on my down #1 including a photon (mistake 2). Near the end of the turn he is almost turned around inside OL range so I accelerate to -10 to maintain distance.

Turn 3: I plot -10/-9/-20 to stay as far away as possible. He goes 14 and pursues. Impulse 10 he launches 3 drones. Shortly afterward I am forced to turn E to prevent him getting a shot on my down #1. He turns F and closes from my right. Around impulse 20 I ID the drones (I, I, IV) and kill them with phasers. He is at R4 and unloads three Disr (2 OL) and 3 P1s, doing 20 to my #2. As I have 4 batts to to his 1, I decide to turn into him and try for a tractor to keep him close until T4. I successfully get him at R2, then emer decel again so that his forward motion will keep his newly launched shuttle away from me. Imp 31 I release the tractor. He is compelled to move forward so we end the turn two hexes apart. I am on the hex spline between his #6/#5, he is on the Hex spline between my 10-box #2 and down #1.

Turn 4: I plot speed 0 and overload the photons. He plots speed 14. He actually has a shot on my down #1 impulse 1 but doesn't fire (he had forgotten the expanded arcs on his disruptors). I do another 35 internals. He gamely continues for a few impulses until I am able to mizia him with a few more phasers on his down #5.

Summary: This ship is faster that the regular Fed but no more maneuverable. Close-range shots, even with all photons hitting, tend to do just a little less than is needed to achieve a decisive advantage. However 2 extra P3s and the G-rack make drones easier to deal with except in extreme cases such as a Kzinti maximum effort. All in all I did not notice any significant balance issues.

Mike wrote:

>>Turn 3: I plot -10/-9/-20 to stay as far away as possible.>>

For what it is worth (assuming this was the actual speed plot), 10/9/20 is an illegal plot--when you drop to 9, your maximum speed for the next 32 impulses is 19 (double or by 10). These things happen :-)

You could give info on the

You could give info on the new configuration too.

Positron flywheel?

">>Turn 3: I plot -10/-9/-20 to stay as far away as possible.>>

For what it is worth (assuming this was the actual speed plot), 10/9/20 is an illegal plot--when you drop to 9, your maximum speed for the next 32 impulses is 19 (double or by 10). These things happen :-)
"

This is a Fed, right? Wouldn't the positron flywheel allow it? Or is that not in Captain's?(I almost never played Feds in Captains, even when I played) If it does, is it not in the tourney ships? Or am I just misremembering how that PFW worked?

Yeah, I don't think Positron

Yeah, I don't think Positron Flywheel even exists anymore. In any case, the tournament ships certainly don't have any :-)

And what about the weasel?

"Impulse 2 I HET D, eating a type-1 on my #5, and Kzindog launches 4 more fast drones. I declare emer decel. Impulse 4 I stop at R3 of Kzindog and weasel the drones."

This is also wrong, unless there are some details left out. An HET on imp 2 means you are unable to weasel until imp 7 at the earliest, not on 4 as is stated here, due to post HET restrictions.

Ah, yes.

The "no shuttles for 4 impulses after a HET" is one of the important "rules that kill".

:-)

Clearly Brok need to

Clearly Brook need to downgrade this one! It is far too powerful with these abilities.

Wow, I totally missed the commentary on my writeup!

Love the positron flywheel idea- let's add it to the ship :)
Seriously, yeah Peter was right about my speed plot, should have been -19 max.

Moose's point is also welll taken. My writeup was not well done there- it does sound like like I launched the WW on impulse 4. Actually stopping is all I did on 4; the weasel wasn't launched until a few impulses later.